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The answer to the preceding question might depend upon understanding Milgrom's MOND.<br /><a href="https://arxiv.org/abs/1301.3907" rel="nofollow">The failures of the standard model of cosmology require a new paradigm</a> by Kroupa, Pawlowski, and Milgrom, 2013<br />Google "riofrio pipino".David Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10537922851243581921noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26741618.post-28231321175324059912019-10-02T13:27:14.424-07:002019-10-02T13:27:14.424-07:00My take on this subject is summarized here: https:...My take on this subject is summarized here: https://www.reddit.com/r/ScienceUncensored/comments/dcf3rp/just_how_conceptually_economical_is_the_many/Zephirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06010623752049244967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26741618.post-67486679622218330042019-09-29T08:21:12.792-07:002019-09-29T08:21:12.792-07:00"The most obvious problem with this argument ...<b>"The most obvious problem with this argument is that it destroys the elegance and economy that Everett’s postulate allegedly possesses in the first place.... The most obvious problem with this argument is that it destroys the elegance and economy that Everett’s postulate allegedly possesses in the first place." </b><br /><br />I don't get this objection. If each observer ends up on the different branch for each quantum observation one does need a line of reasoning, but one doesn't have to add an expression to the Schrodinger Equation. Evolution of the system over time is still governed by one equation under all circumstances. <br /><br />It seems pretty basic to *all* of the interpretations of all modern physical theories of the world at scales not immediate visible to our sense, that you have to explain how the universe <i>appears</i> versus how it actually is. It's not special to MWI. We had to do it with relativity too. <br /><br /><b>"What’s more, arguments like this force Everettians to confront what many of them seem strongly disinclined to confront, namely the problem of constructing a rational discourse about multiple selves. "</b><br /><br />I also don't get this objection. There are never multiple selves from the point of view of any given observer. There is only ever one. <br /><br />But worse, the objection seems to be based on an outdated idea about what constitutes "self". As we now know from extensive experimental evidence the <i>sense</i> of self is generated by the brain, from moment to moment. The target properties of a first person perspective are also part of this same representation. There is no enduring self. Anyone on a branching timeline can look back in time and see what appears to be a continuously evolving history - though in fact it is demonstrably discontinuous at the micro-level. Each instance can't be aware of other branches - which are orthogonal in Hilbert Space. <br /><br /><b>And yet this is exactly what the MWI denies! It says no, uniqueness is an illusion, and you are required to accept that this is so on the basis of an argument that is itself not accessible to testing!</b><br /><br />MWI interpretation <i>does not</i> say that your world is not unique. You can only have one perspective - all the other perspectives are orthogonal to your reality. So <i>your</i> world is absolutely unique. In each possible world, that world has a unique history and will have a unique future. It's just that all possible unique worlds exist in Hilbert Space. <br /><br />But this is why Sabine's objection is the only one that makes sense. We can never, under any circumstances get any information about those "other worlds". So this world is in every meaningful sense unique (and this vitiates your objection). <br /><br />However, it is a consequence of taking the Schrodinger equation seriously that we can infer that those "worlds" must exist. If we are not taking the Schrodinger equation seriously, then we'd have to say <i>why</i>, because it is the single best description of reality ever conceived and has passed every test we can think of to date. <br /><br />If a quantum system does not evolve according to the schrodinger equation under some circumstance, then <i>how does it evolve?</i> Under what circumstances? And what is special about those circumstances? But this is just a restatement of the measurement problem. <br /><br />I don't understand it when you say that "many worlds" are not in the Schrodinger equation. The Schrodinger equation does say that when you make an observation all possibilities are real. All the other formulations of the measurement problem introduce ways of eliminating the <i>other</i> possibilities, i.e. the real possibilities that you don't see. This is what motivated the idea of the wave function collapse in the first place: it eliminates the possibilities that we do not see. <i>All</i> formulations do this.<br /><br />Are you not just saying that MWI is wildly counter-intuitive?<br />Jayaravahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13783922534271559030noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26741618.post-20037538220581600852019-09-29T06:05:47.833-07:002019-09-29T06:05:47.833-07:00By adding the measurement apparatus and the enviro...By adding the measurement apparatus and the environment to the quantum system of interest, decoherence theory tries to build a completely quantum theory of measurement. Yet it seems to me that the theory yields only classical dice, and the unique outcome we experience requires further explanation.<br /><br />That is, if I have a spin-up particle and choose to measure spin along the left-right axis, decoherence theory will give me the equivalent of a fair coin toss with heads-left and tails-right but can't tell me how the coin toss will actually fall. Perhaps the only recourse is that while identically prepared quantum systems are arguably, even provably identical and have no hidden variables, identically prepared macroscopic measurement apparatus really form an ensemble of roughly identical quantum systems, and so the uniqueness of any particular outcome arises from which one of this ensemble the particular run of the experiment encounters.Arunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03451666670728177970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26741618.post-19143961609326321142019-09-28T05:45:16.960-07:002019-09-28T05:45:16.960-07:00"Another, equally tenable, interpretation is ..."Another, equally tenable, interpretation is that the wavefunction enumerates possible outcomes of measurement, and is silent about ontology."<br /><br />It seems to me that MWI makes sense only if one proposes that the wavefunction is not telling us *about* ontology, but that the wavefunction itself *is* ontological (and is the only thing that is ontological). Thus, the one and only thing that actually "exists" is the wavefunction, one wavefunction containing within itself everything. <br /><br />From there, the "many worlds" trivially exist as the different de-cohered terms of the wavefunction. And that's all there is to it.Coelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08597364388910614174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26741618.post-18803680347312984232019-09-27T16:40:40.420-07:002019-09-27T16:40:40.420-07:00It’s certainly not the case that all the gaps [in ...<i>It’s certainly not the case that all the gaps </i>[in the decoherence picture]<i> are filled, but really the only thing that remains substantially unexplained about what used to be called “collapse” is that the outcome of a measurement is unique – that is, a postulate of macroscopic uniqueness.</i><br /><br />This statement confuses me, because in my understanding the crucial content of the idea of wave function collapse is that it obtains a unique outcome in all cases, even though it glosses over (ignores) the interference that presumably plays an important role in a measurement. If decoherence cannot be shown to obtain a unique outcome in all cases then it doesn't remove the mystery; employing a postulate that ensures uniqueness seems to me another way of conveying the notion of collapse, packaged differently.<br /><br />What am I missing here?Marty Tysannerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18113481752481566995noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26741618.post-17975585609684057332019-09-27T05:57:50.171-07:002019-09-27T05:57:50.171-07:00If we can find a different way to eliminate collap...If we can find a different way to eliminate collapse of the wave function, then presumably MWI would be less compelling. One mathematically natural way to do so is to note that when we measure A followed by B, collapse of the state after a measurement A to a mixture of eigenstates of A can also be presented mathematically as a measurement of A followed by a measurement of B-after-A, with no collapse of the state, where B-after-A commutes with A. That is, real, actually joint measurements must be modeled by mutually commutative operators.<br />I have a longer discussion of this on Facebook, <a href="https://www.facebook.com/peter.w.morgan.98/posts/10221710625541367" rel="nofollow">two days ago</a>.<br />All the above assumes that we do not feel <i>compelled</i> to a many worlds interpretation of ordinary probability just because coins when tossed always come up heads or tails.Peter Morganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06075268176382429701noreply@blogger.com